The idealistic developer’s dilemma: Who will help Grin?

Grin is a very popular project in the US crypto VC circle recently. In the past few months, I have heard more than once that many investors are eager to try mining Grin and are ready to invest a lot of money in Grin's GPU mining and even develop ASIC mining machines.

However, Michael Cordner “Yeastplume”, one of Grin’s core developers, mentioned in a recent interview that Grin’s development is facing a funding shortage. While many investors are eager to try and make a profit in a new currency, this principled development team cannot even get enough funds to complete a security audit to ensure the security of the currency network.

Here I have selected a part of the interview, hoping that while you can further understand the Grin project itself, you can also pay attention to the dilemma faced by this open source project. If you are an investor considering Grin mining, you may also consider supporting the development of the project itself.

00.03.40Why is Grin accepted by some Bitcoin supporters?

Q: I noticed that in the Bitcoin world, there are Bitcoin maximalists, there are Bitcoin maximalists who think Monero is OK, and now we have some Bitcoin maximalists who think "Monero is OK, Grin looks interesting too." Why do you think these people are interested in Grin?

M: I think Grin has some features that are not often seen in other projects. The biggest point is probably the spirit of the project - the developers and community working on grin are volunteers who want to really develop the technology, rather than launching an ICO or mining for profit. It is a completely decentralized project. MimibleWimble technology itself is an interesting technology and has the potential to bring some value to the industry.

00.06.15: The mysterious origins of Mimblewimble

00.09.38: Key technical features of Mimblewimble

Q: From what I understand, Mimblewimble mainly attempts to solve two problems related to Bitcoin, one is the scalability of blocks, and the other is privacy. Can you introduce it?

M: I wouldn't say it solves scalability or privacy issues, but of course, it tries to make some improvements towards these goals. Simply put, in Bitcoin, in order to verify a transaction you need to trace back to the very beginning of the chain - Grin tries to improve this by only verifying that all inputs and outputs add up to zero, thus avoiding the need to verify the entire transaction history of a chain.

(leaving out some details on how this is done...)

Q: As someone who uses digital currency transactions in my daily work, one thing about Grin that I find interesting is that no addresses are required in Grin transactions. Can you explain how transactions are possible without addresses?

M: Yes, there are no addresses in grin, so everything happens on the wallet side. In a Mimblewimble blockchain, because there is no concept of addresses, all our transactions will only generate a series of UTXOs, that is, a series of outputs. In completing a transaction, you do not need to enter an address to transfer money, but actually "communicate" with another wallet - so in fact, two wallets collaborate to use their private keys to implement the transaction, and the transaction is recorded on the chain after it is completed.

Q: From a user's perspective, if I have a Grin wallet and I want to transfer some grin to you, what is the interaction process like?

M: There are actually infinite ways to implement this. We have currently implemented some very basic methods, such as ACTP communication and file communication. For example, in the file transfer method, I can initiate a transaction, store it in a file, and send this file to you. You can "upload" this file to your wallet and send the file back to me. Finally, this transaction is recorded on the chain.

Since this transaction requires interaction between wallets, there will be a lot of user interaction and technical challenges. So in Grin, we will not limit the implementation to a specific one. Instead, we provide a toolkit and a base layer for implementing this transfer for the community to use. Developers interested in Grin transactions can develop their own interaction solutions. Some people may be particularly concerned about privacy and want to set up transactions in their own communication network; others may think it is good to use some intermediary services.

Q: Does this mean that Grin transactions will have a lot of flexibility? For example, transactions can be carried out through emails or group chats?

M: Yes. Some of our members are developing transfers based on Keybase (Note: Keybase is an open public key library that has created a set of general encryption security tool applications, covering chat, file storage and other functions).

Q: Compared to Bitcoin, grin seems to want to achieve more efficient blocks. Will grin still have a block size limit?

M: Yes, Grin will have a block size limit. In a MimbleWimble blockchain, transaction outputs can be destroyed - thus reducing the size of the chain.

Q: Then Grin will face the same problem as Bitcoin. You need to first force a block size, and eventually it will face layer 2 expansion similar to Bitcoin.

M: Yes. But unlike Bitcoin… (omitting some technical details about layer 2, multisig, and Dandelion)

00.23.30: Grin mining

Q: Let’s talk about the POW algorithm used by Grin - Cuckoo Cycle - is this to make grin resistant to ASICs?

M: This is not quite accurate. Cuckoo Cycle is actually a memory-hard POW. It was originally intended to increase the difficulty of ASIC development, but with communication and thinking with many ASIC developers, our current goal is to support development in both directions at the same time.

On the one hand, we believe that ASICization is inevitable, so instead of treating ASIC as an enemy, we hope to modify this memory-hard POW to make the development of ASIC easier - eventually reaching a larger number of ASIC options provided by different suppliers. ASICs themselves are not bad, but they usually lead to centralized pressure - usually only produced by a very few suppliers.

On the other hand, in order to ensure that Grin has the fairest possible release, we hope to use Cuckoo Cycle's own anti-ASIC performance in the early days of Grin to enable the GPU community to join the mining competition in the first few years of Grin's development. So in the early days, 90% of the blocks will be generated by anti-ASIC algorithms, and slowly drop to 0 - this gives manufacturers two years to complete the research and development and production of ASIC mining machines. In the end, 100% of the blocks will be generated by ASIC algorithms - from the initial 90% GPU, 10% ASIC to 100% ASIC.

Q: If you want to start mining from the Grin mainnet launch (around January 15, 2019), how can you do it? Will it be very complicated? Or can you download it directly from the grin website?

M: We will simplify this process as much as possible. We have created a project called grin miner to provide some basic tools. Grin's block time is one minute, 60 Grin are generated every minute, and one Grin per second.

00.31.24: Grin’s Monetary Policy

Q: Let's talk about Grin's monetary policy? As far as I understand, Grin's currency supply has no upper limit, and 60 Grin will be generated every minute without stopping, is that right?

M: Yes, but it should be noted that the speed of coin issuance will not change, that is, the inflation rate will gradually approach zero - that is, after Grin has been issued in large quantities, the inflation impact caused by the generation of new Grin will be much smaller than in the early days.

Q: What is the principle behind this design?

M: There are several reasons. First, if the monetary policy is deflationary, early miners will inevitably benefit more than later miners - this is not what we want to see. Second, we think this will make Grin more likely to be a currency rather than a store of value like Bitcoin. If the value of Grin is unlikely to change, people will be more willing to use it rather than hoard it speculatively.

Q: So you hope that Grin is more likely to become money

M: Yes, at least that is our goal now.

Q: So you can settle BCH haha

M: Well, we are not trying to compete with anyone, we just want to achieve our own design.

Q: Are you considering an exchange at the moment?

M: From a technical perspective, yes. We need to solve some technical problems of MimbleWimble wallet to make it usable by exchanges. But at the same time, the Grin project does not have a group of investors who want to profit from it, so there is no pressure from investors to do these "value-added" activities. We believe that Grin is attractive enough, and if there are exchanges interested, please come and communicate with us.

Q: I believe that Grin holders will still hope to have exchanges, because exchanges provide opportunities to price and trade Grin - if you want to use Grin as money, you must at least know the value of Grin.

M: Yes, but the Grin core team will not actively carry out any activities related to exchanges. Of course, we hope that Grin can be accepted by the market as soon as possible.

Q: If a user wants to trade Grin anonymously, is atomic swap a solution?

M: Yes. The community member I mentioned earlier has already implemented atomic swaps with the Ethereum test chain and the Bitcoin test chain. We expect to see more trading pairs implemented after the official release.

00.35.50: Governance Structure

Q: What is Grin’s governance structure?

M: Grin was not created using a strict top-down management structure, but has evolved very organically. We currently have a core committee of developers and long-term community members who make some decisions about Grin's development. But this is still evolving, and it is only a stage in Grin's past development, not necessarily the final form. We need to strike a balance between governance structure and development, and the ultimate goal is to make Grin's development as transparent and decentralized as possible.

Q: Is “Tom Elvis Jedusor” still involved in the development of Grin? (Note: On July 19, 2016, “Tom Elvis Jedusor” published the MimbleWimble white paper and disappeared. Later, “Ignotus Peverell” started a Github project called Grin and began to work on the real implementation of Mimblewimble)

M: No, he/she hasn’t appeared since he/she released the white paper.

Q: Is “Ignotus Peverell” still involved in the development of Grin?

M: Yes, he is still leading the development of the project. He currently chooses to remain completely anonymous and is also very good at hiding his identity.

00.39.42: Funding for Grin

Q: Ignotus mentioned at Grincon that “Grin will remain light and keep protecting your freedom” - this has technical implications, but does it also have social implications?

M: Yes, this actually comes from the structure of the project. We don’t have a group of investors with profit expectations, so we can be more honest with our community in terms of technology, and everyone has an equal opportunity to participate in the Grin community.

Q: But I believe some people must have tried it, such as some venture capitalists?

M: Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of VCs willing to throw a bunch of money at us if we can tell them how to generate returns on their investment. But the important thing is, we can't. All our funding comes from the community fund. If an investor gives money, the only thing he will get is a heartfelt thank you from us and putting his logo on our "friends of grin" page.

Q: What is the funding situation of Grin? This is also an opportunity for you to tell everyone how you can help Grin develop.

M: Our community fund model does face some challenges, but it is the only way we think is fair to everyone. Usually we identify a need that needs to be solved with funds. For example, I launched my own funding campaign, and in order to allow myself to work on Grin full-time, I do need some allowances to support me in the next few months.

We have been running this model for a year. The first campaign was when the market was hot last year, and we completed the fundraising in two days. The second round of campaign was in March, which took a little longer. The third round took even longer. We are currently raising funds for security audits, and most of them have been raised, but under the current market conditions, it is expected that it will take some time to complete the fundraising.

(Note: According to the Grin official website, the Grin Security Audit needs to raise 16 BTC, and has raised 9.1 BTC so far, and the fundraising is still open; the interviewee Michael Cordner's personal developer fund fundraising target is 45,000 pounds, and has raised 48,300 pounds, and the fundraising is closed)

At the same time, we know that some people have invested or plan to invest millions of dollars in Grin mining facilities. We want to tell these people that by donating to Grin's community fund to support the stable operation of Grin, you are actually protecting your investment - allowing us to continue to develop Grin. This is the message we want to convey to anyone who is considering investing in Grin - we hope you can consider donating to Grin's community fund and become a part of the Grin community.

Q: In addition to Security Audit, are you raising funds for any specific causes right now?

M: No other needs at the moment. I might launch another round of my own funding campaign after the mainnet goes live - that's the only thing I know about at the moment.

Q: Do you convert funds into fiat currency immediately after you raise them? Or do you need to continue raising funds if the price drops?

M: For me, I converted into fiat currency immediately after the fundraising was completed because this is not a gambling fund. And we are also trying to shorten the time spent on each round of fundraising to reduce the risk of price fluctuations as much as possible.

Q: What are the main criticisms you have received regarding Grin?

M: Mainly about our monetary policy on inflation.

Q: One criticism I’ve seen about MimbleWimble is that both parties to a transaction need to be online at the same time. But that’s not true, is it?

M: Yes, that’s not the case. When we say that MimbleWimble requires interaction, we actually mean cryptographic interaction—it requires input from both parties to complete the transaction—but this does not mean that you need to be online at the same time. You can both print a piece of paper or exchange USB flash drives to complete the transaction.

Q: Can MimbleWimble be implemented on Bitcoin?

M: It is possible, but the hope is slim at this stage. Not only is the technical difficulty to be solved difficult, but it is also difficult to make any changes to Bitcoin - Bitcoin is the most popular digital currency, but it is also the most conservative in terms of change.

00.47.42: How to support Grin?

Q: How can people support Grin? Do you need any support other than funding?

M: There is indeed a need for funding, but Grin is also a very open community. If anyone wants to participate in technology and design, whether it is writing documents, or being a mathematician or cryptographer, we welcome them all. All you need to do is go to Grin's Gitter and communicate with us.

Q: Where can people follow the latest developments of Grin?

M: The fastest place to contact us is the Gitter channel - we have a developer channel, a designer channel, we also have the Grin Forum, etc.

Original interview link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-what-bitcoin-did-podcast/id1317356120?mt=2&i=1000425104276

Connect with Michael: On Twitter @yeastplume

Follow Grin: Official website: https://grin-tech.org
Github: https://github.com/mimblewimble/site Gitter: https:gitter.im_grin_community_Lobby Grin Forum: https://www.grin-forum.org

For Grin's technology and monetary policy, please refer to the following summary: Documentation: Introduction to MimbleWimble and Grin: https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin/blob/master/doc/intro.md Grin/Mimblewimble for Bitcoiners: https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin/blob/master/doc/grin4bitcoiners.md Grin's Proof-of-Work: https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin/blob/master/doc/pow/pow.md

Resources: MimbleWimble white paper by Tom Elvis Jedusor https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/mimblewimble.txt MimbleWimble followup papar by Andrew Poelstra https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/mimblewimble.pdf Grin developer conference materials: GrinCon0

Grin Chinese information: Grin VS Beam | MimbleWimble two major projects comparison Grin/BEAM-MW comparison report by Tari Labs | KuaiChain Diary #A044

Grin English information: https://tlu.tarilabs.com/protocols/grin-design-choice-criticisms/MainReport.html#grin-design-choice-criticisms---truth-or-fiction https://www.tokendaily.co/blog/mimblewimble-the-good-and-the-bad https://cryptobriefing.com/grin-coin-mimblewimble-introduction/ https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/battle-privacycoins-what-we-know-about-grin-and-beams-mimblewimble/